[kbd] Characters '<', '>' etc. with German layout

[kbd] Characters '<', '>' etc. with German layout

[R. Diez]

Hi all:

I am using Ubuntu 20.04.4, with the MATE Desktop Environment, on a Lenovo ThinkPad T440s laptop.

I believe that the right keyboard model for this laptop is a "Lenovo (previously IBM)", "IBM Space Saver".

On xkeycaps, I think the right model is "IBM", "ThinkPad 770".

I have 2 keyboard layouts installed: Spanish and German, and I am having difficulty typing some common ASCII characters like '<', '>', the pipe symbol '|', etc. That is very annoying when working on a shell console.

When using the Spanish layout, I can get '<' and '>' by holding the right Alt key and one of the shift keys, and then pressing 'x' or 'z' (it may be 'y', because 'y' and 'z' and swapped on German keyboards).

However, when using the German layout, the same key combinations generate some Unicode variant of '<' and '>', namely '‹' and '›', which the shell does not recognise as redirection indicators.

I haven't managed to type the pipe symbol ('|') yet with the German layout, so I am constantly switching layouts.

Is there an easy way to fix these annoyances? Or do I have to learn how to create my own keyboard layouts?

I am completely unfamiliar with Linux keyboard support. Is the kbd project the right place to ask at all?

Thanks in advance,
   rdiez

Re: [kbd] Characters '<', '>' etc. with German layout

[Alexey Gladkov]

On Wed, Jan 05, 2022 at 04:49:20PM +0100, R. Diez wrote:
> Hi all:
> 
> I am using Ubuntu 20.04.4, with the MATE Desktop Environment, on a
> Lenovo ThinkPad T440s laptop.
> 
> I believe that the right keyboard model for this laptop is a "Lenovo
> (previously IBM)", "IBM Space Saver".
> 
> On xkeycaps, I think the right model is "IBM", "ThinkPad 770".
> 
> I have 2 keyboard layouts installed: Spanish and German, and I am having
> difficulty typing some common ASCII characters like '<', '>', the pipe
> symbol '|', etc. That is very annoying when working on a shell console.
> 
> When using the Spanish layout, I can get '<' and '>' by holding the
> right Alt key and one of the shift keys, and then pressing 'x' or 'z'
> (it may be 'y', because 'y' and 'z' and swapped on German keyboards).
> 
> However, when using the German layout, the same key combinations
> generate some Unicode variant of '<' and '>', namely '‹' and '›', which
> the shell does not recognise as redirection indicators.
> 
> I haven't managed to type the pipe symbol ('|') yet with the German
> layout, so I am constantly switching layouts.

How did you configure the keymap in the console?

Since you mentioned ubuntu, I can assume that you have the console-setup
package installed. Is it so ?

If so, can you show me content of /etc/default/keyboard ?

> Is there an easy way to fix these annoyances? Or do I have to learn how
> to create my own keyboard layouts?

If you use console-setup then it's better to ask a package maintainers.

> I am completely unfamiliar with Linux keyboard support. Is the kbd
> project the right place to ask at all?

It depends :)

-- 
Rgrds, legion

Re: [kbd] Characters '<', '>' etc. with German layout

[R. Diez]

 > [...]
 > How did you configure the keymap in the console?

I didn't. I installed Ubuntu MATE with the GUI installer. O8-)


 > Since you mentioned ubuntu, I can assume that you have the console-setup
 > package installed. Is it so ?

Yes, it is apparently installed by default on Ubuntu MATE systems. Or at least I didn't install it manually.


 > If so, can you show me content of /etc/default/keyboard ?

Unfortunately, that is the laptop I use while on holidays, and I am back from holiday. 8-(

I'll post the file contents the next time around.

I do not expect to see anything fancy there. It is not a file that I have ever touched.

I have another IBM ThinkPad laptop with Ubuntu MATE too, which works fine with the "Generic 105-key PC (intl.)". But I changed the keyboard to "Lenovo 
(previously IBM)", "IBM Space Saver", as the outcome should be the same as with the other laptop.

These are the contents of that file:

--------8<--------8<--------8<--------

$ cat /etc/default/keyboard

# KEYBOARD CONFIGURATION FILE

# Consult the keyboard(5) manual page.

XKBMODEL="pc105"
XKBLAYOUT="gb"
XKBVARIANT=""
XKBOPTIONS=""

BACKSPACE="guess"

--------8<--------8<--------8<--------

Now that is unexpected. The keyboard is set in Ubuntu MATE to "IBM Space Saver", but nevertheless, that file says it is still "pc105". And I have 
rebooted the laptop at least once since the keyboard change.


 > If you use console-setup then it's better to ask a package maintainers.

What package maintainer should that be? The Ubuntu MATE project will probably tell me that's an Ubuntu thing, Ubuntu will say that it is a Debian 
thing, Debian will say it's an X-Server and/or kbd thing...

I keep thinking that I cannot be the only guy with such keyboard issues on a ThinkPad.

But say that I have another laptop brand. What would you tell a user that wants to change the character some key generates? Does that depend on 
whether the user runs Fedora or Debian? Does that depend on the desktop environment (KDE/GNOME/...)? Is that different for X, for a text console 
inside X, or for a text mode console?

I just read the following in file /usr/share/doc/keyboard-configuration/README.Debian (on my Ubuntu MATE system):

"In Debian the default keyboard layout is shared between the console
and X.  It is specified in /etc/default/keyboard."

That gives me hope that there is a way to change such key characters globally for both X and the text console.

But I am afraid of running "dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration" etc. The keyboard layout seems to be working fine on this laptop, including 
switching between Spanish and German layouts. If I run such a command, will it break the keyboard on my MATE Desktop?

Thanks for your help,
   rdiez

Re: [kbd] Characters '<', '>' etc. with German layout

[Alexey Gladkov]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 08:39:00PM +0100, R. Diez wrote:
> 
> > [...]
> > How did you configure the keymap in the console?
> 
> I didn't. I installed Ubuntu MATE with the GUI installer. O8-)
> 
> 
> > Since you mentioned ubuntu, I can assume that you have the console-setup
> > package installed. Is it so ?
> 
> Yes, it is apparently installed by default on Ubuntu MATE systems. Or at least I didn't install it manually.
> 
> 
> > If so, can you show me content of /etc/default/keyboard ?
> 
> Unfortunately, that is the laptop I use while on holidays, and I am back from holiday. 8-(
> 
> I'll post the file contents the next time around.
> 
> I do not expect to see anything fancy there. It is not a file that I have ever touched.
> 
> I have another IBM ThinkPad laptop with Ubuntu MATE too, which works fine
> with the "Generic 105-key PC (intl.)". But I changed the keyboard to "Lenovo
> (previously IBM)", "IBM Space Saver", as the outcome should be the same as
> with the other laptop.
> 
> These are the contents of that file:
> 
> --------8<--------8<--------8<--------
> 
> $ cat /etc/default/keyboard
> 
> # KEYBOARD CONFIGURATION FILE
> 
> # Consult the keyboard(5) manual page.
> 
> XKBMODEL="pc105"
> XKBLAYOUT="gb"
> XKBVARIANT=""
> XKBOPTIONS=""
> 
> BACKSPACE="guess"
> 
> --------8<--------8<--------8<--------
> 
> Now that is unexpected. The keyboard is set in Ubuntu MATE to "IBM Space
> Saver", but nevertheless, that file says it is still "pc105". And I have
> rebooted the laptop at least once since the keyboard change.
> 
> 
> > If you use console-setup then it's better to ask a package maintainers.
> 
> What package maintainer should that be? The Ubuntu MATE project will
> probably tell me that's an Ubuntu thing, Ubuntu will say that it is a Debian
> thing, Debian will say it's an X-Server and/or kbd thing...
> 
> I keep thinking that I cannot be the only guy with such keyboard issues on a ThinkPad.
> 
> But say that I have another laptop brand. What would you tell a user that
> wants to change the character some key generates? Does that depend on
> whether the user runs Fedora or Debian? Does that depend on the desktop
> environment (KDE/GNOME/...)? Is that different for X, for a text console
> inside X, or for a text mode console?
> 
> I just read the following in file /usr/share/doc/keyboard-configuration/README.Debian (on my Ubuntu MATE system):
> 
> "In Debian the default keyboard layout is shared between the console
> and X.  It is specified in /etc/default/keyboard."

The /etc/default/keyboard is a configuration file of console-setup. This
project creates a kbd keymap from an xkb keymap. It looks like some
characters were taken from unicode during the conversion process.

> That gives me hope that there is a way to change such key characters globally for both X and the text console.
> 
> But I am afraid of running "dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration" etc.
> The keyboard layout seems to be working fine on this laptop, including
> switching between Spanish and German layouts. If I run such a command, will
> it break the keyboard on my MATE Desktop?
> 
> Thanks for your help,
>   rdiez
> 

-- 
Rgrds, legion