Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:15:59AM +0400, Alexey I. Froloff wrote:
> Changes statistics since `5.7-alt3' follows:
>  ncurses-alt-terms/rxvt-unicode.ti |  215 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++----------
>  ncurses.spec                      |    6 +-
>  2 files changed, 163 insertions(+), 58 deletions(-)
> 
> Changelog since `5.7-alt3' follows:
> commit adb5568b4a93d329412752b3b0a24b74fd1fd88e
> Author: Alexey I. Froloff <raorn@altlinux>
> Date:   Tue Aug 24 11:15:29 2010 +0400
> 
>     5.7-alt3.1
>     
>     - NMU:
>       + Updated rxvt-unicode definition (closes: #23927)

That's quite a change, and it should be alt4.  I noticed that you're
somehow fond of dot-minor releases.  When there's a change (on behalf
of the package), you shouldn't do it.  Just be bold enough to bump
the release.

> commit dc04d91a5c48e4419d64d92cdeebc40bb4cba518
> Author: Alexey I. Froloff <raorn@altlinux>
> Date:   Tue Aug 24 11:02:57 2010 +0400
> 
>     Updated rxvt-unicode.ti from rxvt-unicode sources

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Kirill A. Shutemov]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:29:42PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:15:59AM +0400, Alexey I. Froloff wrote:
> > Changes statistics since `5.7-alt3' follows:
> >  ncurses-alt-terms/rxvt-unicode.ti |  215 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++----------
> >  ncurses.spec                      |    6 +-
> >  2 files changed, 163 insertions(+), 58 deletions(-)
> > 
> > Changelog since `5.7-alt3' follows:
> > commit adb5568b4a93d329412752b3b0a24b74fd1fd88e
> > Author: Alexey I. Froloff <raorn@altlinux>
> > Date:   Tue Aug 24 11:15:29 2010 +0400
> > 
> >     5.7-alt3.1
> >     
> >     - NMU:
> >       + Updated rxvt-unicode definition (closes: #23927)
> 
> That's quite a change, and it should be alt4.  I noticed that you're
> somehow fond of dot-minor releases.  When there's a change (on behalf
> of the package), you shouldn't do it.  Just be bold enough to bump
> the release.

Why is rpm relese alt98.44?
 
> > commit dc04d91a5c48e4419d64d92cdeebc40bb4cba518
> > Author: Alexey I. Froloff <raorn@altlinux>
> > Date:   Tue Aug 24 11:02:57 2010 +0400
> > 
> >     Updated rxvt-unicode.ti from rxvt-unicode sources
> _______________________________________________
> Devel mailing list
> Devel@lists.altlinux.org
> https://lists.altlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

-- 
 Kirill A. Shutemov

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 02:36:30PM +0300, Kirill A. Shutemov wrote:
> > That's quite a change, and it should be alt4.  I noticed that you're
> > somehow fond of dot-minor releases.  When there's a change (on behalf
> > of the package), you shouldn't do it.  Just be bold enough to bump
> > the release.
> 
> Why is rpm relese alt98.44?

Um, that's a nice catch.  rpm is a special thing.  There's no upstream
version we stick to (4.0.4 is just a historic reference which merely fills
the gap).  So there's actually no rpm version, we're doing our own rpm,
and alt98 just indictates some milstone features.

With the advent of soname set-versions, I am goint to bump the release
to alt99.M51 and alt100, for that matter.

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey I. Froloff]

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On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:29:42PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> That's quite a change, and it should be alt4.  I noticed that you're
> somehow fond of dot-minor releases.  When there's a change (on behalf
> of the package), you shouldn't do it.  Just be bold enough to bump
> the release.
I don't remember asking you how to make a non-maintainer upload.
On the other hand, I don't need to ask you because, you know, I
just don't want to.

P.S.  http://www.altlinux.org/NMU#.D0.92.D0.B5.D1.80.D1.81.D0.B8.D0.BE.D0.BD.D0.B8.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.B2.D0.B0.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B5

-- 
Regards,    --
Sir Raorn.   --- http://thousandsofhate.blogspot.com/

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Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 04:13:18PM +0400, Alexey I. Froloff wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:29:42PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> > That's quite a change, and it should be alt4.  I noticed that you're
> > somehow fond of dot-minor releases.  When there's a change (on behalf
> > of the package), you shouldn't do it.  Just be bold enough to bump
> > the release.
> I don't remember asking you how to make a non-maintainer upload.
> On the other hand, I don't need to ask you because, you know, I
> just don't want to.

Um, so you're like, I'm telling you something you're not ready to accept.
Also, you're uncomfortable with the very fact that I'm telling you just
anything.  Okay.

> P.S.  http://www.altlinux.org/NMU#.D0.92.D0.B5.D1.80.D1.81.D0.B8.D0.BE.D0.BD.D0.B8.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.B2.D0.B0.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B5

So you refer to a piece of anonymous bytestream written out there.
By a wanker.  Don't you even believe it?  I should have pressed
multiple C-W right here.

Still a better rule is: when you make a change to a package,
the release must be bumped in a straightforward way.  Dot-minor
release are for non-essential changes (e.g. specfile-only changes)
and automatic rebuilds.

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey I. Froloff]

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On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:58:44PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> Um, so you're like, I'm telling you something you're not ready
> to accept.
I guess you're taking me for someone who cares.  You are so
wrong...

-- 
Regards,    --
Sir Raorn.   --- http://thousandsofhate.blogspot.com/

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Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:05:00PM +0400, Alexey I. Froloff wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:58:44PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> > Um, so you're like, I'm telling you something you're not ready
> > to accept.
> I guess you're taking me for someone who cares.  You are so
> wrong...

So you don't care, you're just trying to follow the rules.
Well, you're quite a chap.-)

> -- 
> Regards,    --
> Sir Raorn.   --- http://thousandsofhate.blogspot.com/

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey I. Froloff]

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On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:11:10PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> So you don't care, you're just trying to follow the rules.
> Well, you're quite a chap.-)
Pathetic at is pathetic.

-- 
Regards,    --
Sir Raorn.   --- http://thousandsofhate.blogspot.com/

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Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:17:39PM +0400, Alexey I. Froloff wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 11:11:10PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> > So you don't care, you're just trying to follow the rules.
> > Well, you're quite a chap.-)
> Pathetic at is pathetic.

Um, maybe I should't have said "quite a chap".
"Quite a pal" would do.-)

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 04:13:18PM +0400, Alexey I. Froloff wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:29:42PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> > That's quite a change, and it should be alt4.  I noticed that you're
> > somehow fond of dot-minor releases.  When there's a change (on behalf
> > of the package), you shouldn't do it.  Just be bold enough to bump
> > the release.
> I don't remember asking you how to make a non-maintainer upload.
> On the other hand, I don't need to ask you because, you know, I
> just don't want to.

Also, a "non-maintainer upload" is a... a debspeak.  And frankly,
I don't like it.  Um, it's like, you know, someone tells you of NPOV.
And you immediately know the guy has a crush on wikipedia.  He is, like,
enrolled.  And when you hear the guy preaching of that bloody NPOV
again...

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey I. Froloff]

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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 08:36:25AM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> Also, a "non-maintainer upload" is a... a debspeak.  And frankly,
[..skip..]
> again...
Could you, please, shut up an mind your own business?

-- 
Regards,    --
Sir Raorn.   --- http://thousandsofhate.blogspot.com/

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Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:17:44AM +0400, Alexey I. Froloff wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 08:36:25AM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> > Also, a "non-maintainer upload" is a... a debspeak.  And frankly,
> [..skip..]
> > again...
> Could you, please, shut up an mind your own business?

I do mind my own business, which includes the following.  Non-maintainer
upload is a debspeak, and you should not indicate "NMU" in rpm changelog.

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey I. Froloff]

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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:36:22AM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> I do mind my own business, which includes the following.  Non-maintainer
> upload is a debspeak, and you should not indicate "NMU" in rpm changelog.
Yet again, I don't remember asking you a god damn thing.  Go
build some perls instead of posting meaningless messages.

-- 
Regards,    --
Sir Raorn.   --- http://thousandsofhate.blogspot.com/

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Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Konstantin Pavlov]

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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:36:22AM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:17:44AM +0400, Alexey I. Froloff wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 08:36:25AM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> > > Also, a "non-maintainer upload" is a... a debspeak.  And frankly,
> > [..skip..]
> > > again...
> > Could you, please, shut up an mind your own business?
> 
> I do mind my own business, which includes the following.  Non-maintainer
> upload is a debspeak, and you should not indicate "NMU" in rpm changelog.

Ехал Дебиан через реку,
видит Дебиан в реке Дебиан,
сунул Дебиан в Дебиан Дебиан,
Дебиан Дебиан Дебиан Дебиан.

-- 
[...] на мой взгляд, нужно жёстким излучением править ДНК разработчиков
glib2, чтобы уважаемые разработчики всё-таки изучили для них же написанный
"How to Write Shared Libraries"
		-- abulava in sisyphus@

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[devel] [JT] Re: [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Michael Shigorin]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:36:22AM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> Non-maintainer upload is a debspeak, and you should not
> indicate "NMU" in rpm changelog.

Ту плииз йо энайэйч фиилин уи куд джаст импот ит анды ыназы нэйм
(эн ринейм http://www.altlinux.org/NMU ылонг зы уэй).

PS: твой предыдущий ответ -- на пять, конечно :)

-- 
админов разогнали,
русскоязычных разгоняем,
кого бы ещё разогнать и как?

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:48:14AM +0400, Alexey I. Froloff wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:36:22AM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> > I do mind my own business, which includes the following.  Non-maintainer
> > upload is a debspeak, and you should not indicate "NMU" in rpm changelog.
> Yet again, I don't remember asking you a god damn thing.  Go
> build some perls instead of posting meaningless messages.

Um, things are getting tough.  And you leave no possibility for discussion.
Another day, I'll kick your ass.  Be sure about that.

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:48:50AM +0400, Konstantin Pavlov wrote:
> Ехал Дебиан через реку,
> видит Дебиан в реке Дебиан,
> сунул Дебиан в Дебиан Дебиан,
> Дебиан Дебиан Дебиан Дебиан.

And so, don't you believe in nomine Debian?
What's your credo?-)

Re: [devel] [SCM] packages/ncurses: tags/5.7-alt3.1

[Dmitry V. Levin]

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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:36:22AM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> Non-maintainer upload is a debspeak,
> and you should not indicate "NMU" in rpm changelog.

This is a nonsense, because NMU is a formally defined and
widely accepted term.


-- 
ldv

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[devel] debspeak considered harmful (was: packages/ncurses)

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 01:52:56PM +0400, Dmitry V. Levin wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:36:22AM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> > Non-maintainer upload is a debspeak,
> > and you should not indicate "NMU" in rpm changelog.
> 
> This is a nonsense, because NMU is a formally defined and
> widely accepted term.

I feel NMU is less appropriate a term nowadays.  NMU stands for
an "upload".  To an ftp directory.  We don't do these things today,
do we?  Another inappropriate term that comes from Debian is "the
incoming".  We used to have an "incoming", too.  It's just a jargon
associated with poor development practices and poor build technologies.

Another ground for criticism is that maintainership becomes increasingly
blurred - we have ACL, and it tends to include @everybody by default.

[devel] perl upgrade

[Vladimir Lettiev]

Думаю самое время напомнить, что в Sisyphus по-прежнему стагнация с perl'ом.
На этой неделе от апстрима ожидается релиз стабильной ветки 5.12.2, который
непохо бы собрать в Sisyphus и начать тестирования/пересборки модулей perl.
Тем более если в ближайшем будущем ожидаются beta/rc релизы LTS
дистрибутива ALTLinux.

-- 
Vladimir Lettiev aka crux <theCrux@gmail.com>

Re: [devel] perl upgrade

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 08:13:58PM +0400, Vladimir Lettiev wrote:
> Думаю самое время напомнить, что в Sisyphus по-прежнему стагнация с perl'ом.
> На этой неделе от апстрима ожидается релиз стабильной ветки 5.12.2, который
> непохо бы собрать в Sisyphus и начать тестирования/пересборки модулей perl.
> Тем более если в ближайшем будущем ожидаются beta/rc релизы LTS
> дистрибутива ALTLinux.

Да.  И если Вам очень хочется собирать новый перл, то это обсуждаемо.
Но вообще-то там есть много тонкостей, они могут быстро наскучить.
Потому что же это не просто взять старый спек и попытаться воткнуть
в него новый тарболл.  Нужно всю документацию перечитать хотя бы,
и все исходники.-)

Короче я думал собирать перл 5.12 где-то в сентябре.
Любите ли Вы перл так, как люблю его я?-)

Re: [devel] perl upgrade

[Vladimir Lettiev]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 09:09:51PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 08:13:58PM +0400, Vladimir Lettiev wrote:
> > Думаю самое время напомнить, что в Sisyphus по-прежнему стагнация с perl'ом.
> > На этой неделе от апстрима ожидается релиз стабильной ветки 5.12.2, который
> > непохо бы собрать в Sisyphus и начать тестирования/пересборки модулей perl.
> > Тем более если в ближайшем будущем ожидаются beta/rc релизы LTS
> > дистрибутива ALTLinux.
> 
> Да.  И если Вам очень хочется собирать новый перл, то это обсуждаемо.
> Но вообще-то там есть много тонкостей, они могут быстро наскучить.
> Потому что же это не просто взять старый спек и попытаться воткнуть
> в него новый тарболл.  Нужно всю документацию перечитать хотя бы,
> и все исходники.-)
> 
> Короче я думал собирать перл 5.12 где-то в сентябре.

Сентябрь начнётся уже на следующей неделе. Думаю 5.12 стоит того, чтобы
уделить ему достаточно времени и сил.

> Любите ли Вы перл так, как люблю его я?-)

PIMB ;-)

-- 
Vladimir Lettiev aka crux <theCrux@gmail.com>

Re: [devel] debspeak considered harmful (was: packages/ncurses)

[Денис Смирнов]

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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 07:40:50PM +0400, Алексей Турбин wrote:

AT> Another ground for criticism is that maintainership becomes increasingly
AT> blurred - we have ACL, and it tends to include @everybody by default.

Мантйенер это не просто кто-то кто что-то собирает, это человек, который
взялся отвечать за работу пакета. Заливающий и мантейнер вполне могут быть
разными лицами. Мало того, пакет может регулярно собираться при полном
отсутствии мантейнера.

Но NMU -- это NMU, операция, когда пакет заливает один человек, а "ведет"
его другой.

А играть словами здесь все умеют, и флеймить -- тоже. А вот Perl собирать
далеко не все умеют ;-)

-- 
С уважением, Денис

http://mithraen.ru/
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[devel] [JT] Re: perl upgrade

[Michael Shigorin]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 09:34:00PM +0400, Vladimir Lettiev wrote:
> > Короче я думал собирать перл 5.12 где-то в сентябре.
> Сентябрь начнётся уже на следующей неделе.

Так то сентябрь _этого_ года. :)

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:06:00PM +0400, Денис Смирнов wrote:
> А вот Perl собирать далеко не все умеют ;-)

Угу, объявим флэшмоб по сборке модулей из perl-base опять ;)

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/

Re: [devel] debspeak considered harmful (was: packages/ncurses)

[Alexey Tourbin]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:06:00PM +0400, Денис Смирнов wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 07:40:50PM +0400, Алексей Турбин wrote:
> AT> Another ground for criticism is that maintainership becomes increasingly
> AT> blurred - we have ACL, and it tends to include @everybody by default.
> 
> Мантйенер это не просто кто-то кто что-то собирает, это человек, который
> взялся отвечать за работу пакета. Заливающий и мантейнер вполне могут быть
> разными лицами. Мало того, пакет может регулярно собираться при полном
> отсутствии мантейнера.

You're advocating inappropriate terms (like "NMU"), which render
inappropriate reality.  You then attempt to support your inappropriate
reality with formal definitions.  With a rigour!  You know, like, "a man
who aims to maintain a package must be responsible for maintaining
the package".  Buddy, um, stop it.  What's your point?

> Но NMU -- это NMU, операция, когда пакет заливает один человек, а "ведет"
> его другой.
> 
> А играть словами здесь все умеют, и флеймить -- тоже. А вот Perl собирать
> далеко не все умеют ;-)

Playing words, building perls.
Life sucks.-)

Re: [devel] [JT] Re: perl upgrade

[Денис Смирнов]

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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 09:37:06PM +0300, Michael Shigorin wrote:

>> А вот Perl собирать далеко не все умеют ;-)
MS> Угу, объявим флэшмоб по сборке модулей из perl-base опять ;)

И сделаем в них конфликт на perl-base! :)

Я собственно не сторонник гнаться за версиями, но уж лучше либо таки
обновить перл либо выкинуть нафиг из perl-base большую часть модулей.
Чтобы их можно было обновить. Ибо из-за того что нельзя -- я обломался с
модулями перла для Amazon S3, а это сильно испортило мне настроение :)

-- 
С уважением, Денис

http://mithraen.ru/
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Re: [devel] debspeak considered harmful (was: packages/ncurses)

[Alexey I. Froloff]

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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:53:55PM +0400, Alexey Tourbin wrote:
> Life sucks.-)
And then you die... (c)

-- 
Regards,    --
Sir Raorn.   --- http://thousandsofhate.blogspot.com/

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Re: [devel] debspeak considered harmful (was: packages/ncurses)

[Денис Смирнов]

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On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:53:55PM +0400, Алексей Турбин wrote:

AT> You're advocating inappropriate terms (like "NMU"), 

Предложи другой термин, который был бы коротким, и при этом обладал более
точным определением процесса.

AT> which render inappropriate reality. You then attempt to support your inappropriate
AT> reality with formal definitions.  With a rigour!  You know, like, "a man
AT> who aims to maintain a package must be responsible for maintaining
AT> the package".  Buddy, um, stop it.  What's your point?

Моя позиция именно в том что "maintain" и "must be responsible"
неразделимы. А если не "responsible", то тогда это не мантейнер, а просто
пакетик собрал.

И, кстати, последнее время ширится практика (правильная) если собирается
пакет, которым заниматься дальше человек не планирует, и собрал просто
потому что по зависимостям для чего-то пригодилось, или просто от скуки --
то такой пакет сразу же на nobody@ вешается.

Мантейнер от "собирателя пакетиков" отличается как раз некоторой
ответственностью. Как минимум моральной.

AT> Playing words, building perls.
AT> Life sucks.-)

Не, жизнь -- хороша, а вот все IT -- это танцы с граблями по минному полю
%)

-- 
С уважением, Денис

http://mithraen.ru/
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Re: [devel] [JT] Re: perl upgrade

[Sergey Y. Afonin]

On Thursday 26 August 2010, Денис Смирнов wrote:

> Я собственно не сторонник гнаться за версиями, но уж лучше либо таки
> обновить перл либо выкинуть нафиг из perl-base большую часть модулей.
> Чтобы их можно было обновить.

Да, в 5.1 тоже хотелось бы ряд модулей обновить, но они в perl-base...
Как прижмёт, придётся Сизиф использовать, где надо. Одна надежда - может
6.0 отбранчуется к этому времени.

-- 
С уважением, Сергей Афонин
asy@altlinux.ru