[mdk-re] ru_RU.UTF-8

[mdk-re] ru_RU.UTF-8

[Serge Skorokhodov]

Здравствуйте!

Заранее прошу прощения за длинный постинг у тех, кому это не
интересно.

Я прошу разработчиков (AEN в первую очередь) прокомментировать
такой фрагмент переписки из cooker-i18n@linux-mandrake.com (на
вопрос о появившемся языке Russian/UTF-8 отвечает Pablo
Saratxaga).

>>>> Is it possible to have unicode support in console? For
>>>> example if i need to work with Latin, Cyrillic, Hebrew,
>>>> Arabic and if possible Mongolian
> 
> Not currently.
>
> Currently you can use unicode but you are limited to 512
> displayable glyphs. And also you are limited to left to right
> and non combining scripts.
> 
> Support for more displayable chars would needs an extra
> program, as there are used for Japanese and Chinese already. It
> isn't impossible to have one of such based on unicode and
> allowing use of TTF fonts for example, with FB console. I
> simply don't know of such a thing.
> 
> In any case support of RTL and/or complex scripts will reqire
> extra code; that isn't yet supported on X11, which I suppose
> has more priority.
> 
>>>> What do i need to during the instalation or/and
>>>> post-configuration? Same thing for X Window System. Can i
>>>> have this things at the same time?
> 
> On X11 things are much better. You can use utf-8 and have good
> display (limited only to available glyphs of your font); you
> are still limited to left to right and non composing scripts;
> however, there are some beta version libs supporting them.
> There is pango and Gtk2 (beta version is version 1.3; packages
> are included in one of the CDs), you need to recompile and link
> with it, and probably do some conversion of the code, but you
> should be able to display those RTL and complex script
> languages very well (look at http://www.pango.org/ for some
> screenshots).
> 
> There is also a project (not made public yet) to add indic
> languages support to XFree86, it is based, as pango, in utf-8
> encoding. It isn't yet available, so it won't be on MDK 8.1;
> but if you need it you should be able to apply the patches once
> they are publicized (and we will probably include them in our
> cooker vesion at that time too).
> 
>>> Well, for this reason I asked what Russian/UTF-8 in Language
>>> selection was for.
> 
> It sets LC_* to "ru_RU.UTF-8". so it uses unicode encoding.
> 
>>> I presumed it should do that.
> 
> Console support is problematic, the current console-tools are
> ignorant of all the nice i18n improvements that were done in
> glibc. they are a pain to correctly configure; and I haven't
> done it for russian utf-8 on console yet. It is better on X11.
> 
>>> Pixel, what you had in mind when
>>> you added it?
>> 
>> not me, pablo did! I don't understand much those pbs.
> 
> I did.
> 
> Now that utf-8 works (there are still some small problems here
> and there), I set utf-8 by default for some locales (az,
> tg,...) for which previously I have made non standard 8bit
> encodings. I also added an utf-8 choice for cyrillic languages
> as they have already a nice mess of multiple encodings to
> choose from, I suppose they are likely candidates to be
> interested in UTF-8.
> 
> I can remove it from DrakX if you thing it will made too much
> problems (utf-8 support is usable, but has still several
> problems, old 8bit encodings may be better for Russian)
> 
> In any case, it is always possible to edit after install the
> /etc/sysconfig/i18n or $HOME/.i18n to use xx_YY.UTF-8
> definitions for all LC_* entries, and then use unicode locale.

Заранее благодарен.

Serge Skorokhodov aka suralis
11.09.2001 suralis-s@mtu-net.ru

[mdk-re] Re: ru_RU.UTF-8

[Alexander Bokovoy]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:09:38PM +0400, Serge Skorokhodov wrote:
> Здравствуйте!
> 
> Заранее прошу прощения за длинный постинг у тех, кому это не
> интересно.
> 
> Я прошу разработчиков (AEN в первую очередь) прокомментировать
> такой фрагмент переписки из cooker-i18n@linux-mandrake.com (на
> вопрос о появившемся языке Russian/UTF-8 отвечает Pablo
> Saratxaga).
> 
> > Support for more displayable chars would needs an extra
> > program, as there are used for Japanese and Chinese already. It
> > isn't impossible to have one of such based on unicode and
> > allowing use of TTF fonts for example, with FB console. I
> > simply don't know of such a thing.
Это возможно и даже реализовано в новом инсталляторе Debian. В тестовом
режиме пока, конечно.

> >>>> What do i need to during the instalation or/and
> >>>> post-configuration? Same thing for X Window System. Can i
> >>>> have this things at the same time?
> > 
> > On X11 things are much better. You can use utf-8 and have good
> > display (limited only to available glyphs of your font); you
> > are still limited to left to right and non composing scripts;
Есть арабская консоль (терминал), так что справа-налево писать можно.
AbiSuite в нашей сборке поддерживает иврит и арабскую письменность.

> > There is also a project (not made public yet) to add indic
> > languages support to XFree86, it is based, as pango, in utf-8
> > encoding. It isn't yet available, so it won't be on MDK 8.1;
> > but if you need it you should be able to apply the patches once
> > they are publicized (and we will probably include them in our
> > cooker vesion at that time too).
То, о чем говорит Пабло, пока не работает в связи с серьезными проблемами
в интерпретации символов Unicode при трансляции индийских традиционных
8-битных кодировок -- символы Unicode считаются частью кода глифа, а не
отдельными символами.

> > In any case, it is always possible to edit after install the
> > /etc/sysconfig/i18n or $HOME/.i18n to use xx_YY.UTF-8
> > definitions for all LC_* entries, and then use unicode locale.
Вполне верно. Я думаю, что Петр Новодворский сможет также расказать о том,
какая работа по Unicode-зации консоли сделана в Дебиан.
-- 
/ Alexander Bokovoy
$ cat /proc/identity >~/.signature
  `Senior software developer and analyst for SaM-Solutions Ltd.`
---
Excellent day for putting Slinkies on an escalator.

Re: [mdk-re] ru_RU.UTF-8

[Aleksey Novodvorsky]

Serge Skorokhodov wrote:

> Здравствуйте!
>
> Заранее прошу прощения за длинный постинг у тех, кому это не
> интересно.
>
> Я прошу разработчиков (AEN в первую очередь) прокомментировать
> такой фрагмент переписки из cooker-i18n@linux-mandrake.com (на
> вопрос о появившемся языке Russian/UTF-8 отвечает Pablo
> Saratxaga).
>

А что комментировать? Все верно. Я не хочу включать патчи
псевдоподдержки utf-8 в gtk-1.2, лучше подождать gtk2. Равно как и qt-3
Надо все же говорить о поддержке  многоязычного ввода-вывода, а не о
поддержке utf-8, так как последняя часто будет декларативная.
А locales ru_RU.UTF-8 есть в нашей сборке glibc давно. Равно как и в
locale.alias от XFree.

Rgrds, AEN