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* [Comm-en] Introduction
@ 2009-05-17  9:04 Niki Kovacs
  2009-05-17  9:19 ` Michael Shigorin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Niki Kovacs @ 2009-05-17  9:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: community-en

Hi,

I'm an Austrian IT consultant living in Montpezat, South France, and a 
100% GNU/Linux user since 2001 (Slackware, Debian, CentOS mainly).

Some time ago, I read a review about ALT Linux Desktop in the german 
(paper) magazine Linux User, and I decided to give it a spin. Now I 
found the time, and I installed ALT 4.1.1 Desktop on one of my machines, 
and let me state that I'm *very* impressed.

Now my main concern is documentation and/or support. Unfortunately I 
don't speak Russian. I'm very fluent in german (my mother language), 
french and english, but there don't seem to be any docs around.

How about the mailing list. Is this list still active ? I have a fair 
comprehension of Linux, so I guess there will only be a handful of 
distribution-specific questions.

Cheers from the sunny South of France,

Niki Kovacs


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-17  9:04 [Comm-en] Introduction Niki Kovacs
@ 2009-05-17  9:19 ` Michael Shigorin
  2009-05-17  9:55   ` Niki Kovacs
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Michael Shigorin @ 2009-05-17  9:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: community-en

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 11:04:13AM +0200, Niki Kovacs wrote:
> I'm an Austrian IT consultant living in Montpezat, South France, and a 
> 100% GNU/Linux user since 2001 (Slackware, Debian, CentOS mainly).
> Some time ago, I read a review about ALT Linux Desktop in the german 
> (paper) magazine Linux User, and I decided to give it a spin. Now I 
> found the time, and I installed ALT 4.1.1 Desktop on one of my machines, 
> and let me state that I'm *very* impressed.

Wow!  Anyways, willkommen.

Would be interesting to know what exactly was impressive,
and what might have tried to spoil that.

> Now my main concern is documentation and/or support.

It's rather valid.

> Unfortunately I don't speak Russian. I'm very fluent in german
> (my mother language), french and english, but there don't seem
> to be any docs around.

There's an English wiki: http://en.altlinux.org
which is however far behind the Russian one
(http://www.altlinux.org).

> How about the mailing list. Is this list still active?

More or less; over the years it was somewhere near this level of
activity, or below it, so I'd say now it's rather "more".

Just for comparison, Russian-spoken ones are a bit traffickey:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.altlinux.community.english
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.altlinux.community
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.altlinux.sysadmins
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.altlinux.hardware
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.altlinux.sisyphus
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.altlinux.devel

Guess it might help to ask things here and then decide
whether/how to post 'em to the wiki, probably locating
and translating/adapting preexisting Russian articles.

> Cheers from the sunny South of France,

Well, here in Kiev, Ukraine it's a bit rainy today.
Yesterday was perfectly fine though.

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-17  9:19 ` Michael Shigorin
@ 2009-05-17  9:55   ` Niki Kovacs
  2009-05-17 10:18     ` Michael Shigorin
    0 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Niki Kovacs @ 2009-05-17  9:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: shigorin, ALT Linux users (in English only)

Michael Shigorin a écrit :
> 
> Would be interesting to know what exactly was impressive,
> and what might have tried to spoil that.

I first installed ALT in VirtualBox, and I just liked the little 
details. A no-bullshit KDE 3.5.x desktop, with just the right 
adjustments. (For example, replace KMail by Thunderbird, which is a good 
idea, since KMail's IMAP support is buggy). And I like the sober 
appearance, like SUSE, but less glossy. Clean and understated.

> 
>> How about the mailing list. Is this list still active?
> 
> More or less; over the years it was somewhere near this level of
> activity, or below it, so I'd say now it's rather "more".

The speed of your response is already part of the answer.

Ah yes, one first spoiler. I just made some space on a "real" (e. g. 
non-virtual) PC, and first failure: when I choose "Destroy all 
partitions, then autopartitions", packages are all "installed", but then 
the installer exits with a general failure for all the packages. Looks 
like it forgot to format. Now I'm currently running it again, this time 
with "Custom install".

Cheers,

Niki


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-17  9:55   ` Niki Kovacs
@ 2009-05-17 10:18     ` Michael Shigorin
    1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Michael Shigorin @ 2009-05-17 10:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ALT Linux users (in English only)

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 11:55:53AM +0200, Niki Kovacs wrote:
> Ah yes, one first spoiler. I just made some space on a "real"
> (e. g.  non-virtual) PC, and first failure: when I choose
> "Destroy all partitions, then autopartitions", packages are all
> "installed"

The first progress bar has to do with "retrieving" packages
(something that might better be hidden in case of local package
source like DVD), although IIRC it happens _after_ partitioning.

> but then the installer exits with a general failure for all the
> packages. Looks like it forgot to format.  Now I'm currently
> running it again, this time with "Custom install".

Ouch, I've autopartitioned a few systems with 4.1.x and don't
remember problems with releases (seems there were with testing
versions, but got ironed out for me).

If you'll have some time and inspiration to check whether that's
also reproducible with current 5.0-beta -- it has officially
jumped to KDE4 but some of us decided to be retro and prepared
KDE3 builds -- might be nice:

ftp://beta.altlinux.org/desktop/
ftp://ftp.linux.kiev.ua/pub/Linux/ALT/people/mike/iso/altlinux-5.0-20090412-kde3-i586-ru-install-cd.iso

The installation logs are kept in /tmp while installation and
copied to /root/.install-logs/ of destination filesystem before
reboot.  Don't clearly remember if passwords are invalidated
there (for security purposes) or not (for kickstart-like ones)
though, so take care.

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  @ 2009-05-17 10:28       ` Michael Shigorin
  2009-05-17 10:46         ` Niki Kovacs
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Michael Shigorin @ 2009-05-17 10:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ALT Linux users (in English only)

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 01:16:45PM +0300, Alex Negulescu wrote:
> Now I've got for desktops a mix-up of packages from 4.1.1 and
> sisyphus too, that works like a charm

Lucker they'd say :)  It's really more safe to stay within any
chosen branch (like 4.1/branch or 5.0/branch, or even unstable
Sisyphus) than to mix things.  I've _occasionally_ got my share
of troubles with binary "point upgrades" of that nature being
lazy enough to build a package backport, and way too often saw
people having theirs.

So while you might have enough experience to make right decisions
and handle any weird things that might happen then, it's really
not a good advice to mix repo _versions_ together (this holds
true for e.g. 4.0+4.1 or 4.1+5.0, too).  Sometimes apt might just
throw hands up feeling dizzy of that mess of packages and deps...

> some servers with 4.0 at my clients (without virtualization),
> 1 virtual server (Sisyphus) that also works like a charm
> (runnin' 2.6.26 built by Lakostis)

Just for the record, I run a few desktops (mostly 5.0/branch
by now), a virtualized office/terminal server (ALTSP in an OpenVZ
container with Server 4.0 on hardware node), a Sisyphus-based
build server with slight use of virtualization for convenience,
and the rest of servers runs Server 4.0 employing OpenVZ
extensively.

There's also at least one production VE with Master 2.4-based
root still running, and probably another standalone system with
Spring 2001 on it (at least it was alive and in service a few
years ago). :)

> Regarding your error, I never got that, even on new systems.
> Maybe it does not see the drives or does not access them
> correctly (too new board?).

IIRC without any drives there would be a message while trying
to proceed with any choice, be it autoparitioning or custom.

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-17 10:28       ` Michael Shigorin
@ 2009-05-17 10:46         ` Niki Kovacs
  2009-05-17 21:54           ` Michael Shigorin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Niki Kovacs @ 2009-05-17 10:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: shigorin, ALT Linux users (in English only)

Michael Shigorin a écrit :

> 
> IIRC without any drives there would be a message while trying
> to proceed with any choice, be it autoparitioning or custom.
> 

Just my luck. ALT Linux refuses to install on this machine, a NEC 
Powermate (PIV 2.4 GHz, two 40 GB disks). Curiously enough, this machine 
(acting as sandbox) already had working installs of CentOS, Ubuntu and 
(god forbid) Windows XP.

Any suggestions ?

Niki


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-17 10:46         ` Niki Kovacs
@ 2009-05-17 21:54           ` Michael Shigorin
  2009-05-18  7:15             ` Niki Kovacs
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Michael Shigorin @ 2009-05-17 21:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ALT Linux users (in English only)

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:46:21PM +0200, Niki Kovacs wrote:
> >IIRC without any drives there would be a message while trying
> >to proceed with any choice, be it autoparitioning or custom.
> Just my luck. ALT Linux refuses to install on this machine, a
> NEC Powermate (PIV 2.4 GHz, two 40 GB disks). Curiously enough,
> this machine (acting as sandbox) already had working installs
> of CentOS, Ubuntu and (god forbid) Windows XP.
> Any suggestions ?

Ouch.  If you're able to go to tty2/3 (shells there), copy
/tmp/*.log onto USB flash or whatever, check that these don't
contain your passwords (at this stage they definitely shouldn't)
and pastebin them or mail offlist to me, maybe we could find the
culprit in this particular case.

I'd also try shifting the case:
ftp://ftp.altlinux.org/pub/distributions/ALTLinux/4.0/Desktop/4.0.1/iso/altlinux-4.0.1-desktop-i586-install-dvd5.iso
ftp://beta.altlinux.org/desktop/beta-20090422/altlinux-5.0.0_beta-20090422-desktop-i586-ru-install-dvd5.iso

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-17 21:54           ` Michael Shigorin
@ 2009-05-18  7:15             ` Niki Kovacs
  2009-05-18 14:49               ` Michael Shigorin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Niki Kovacs @ 2009-05-18  7:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: shigorin, ALT Linux users (in English only)

Michael Shigorin a écrit :

> 
> Ouch.  If you're able to go to tty2/3 (shells there), copy
> /tmp/*.log onto USB flash or whatever, check that these don't
> contain your passwords (at this stage they definitely shouldn't)
> and pastebin them or mail offlist to me, maybe we could find the
> culprit in this particular case.

Oooops sorry. I saw the "pastebin" and "offlist" bit too late. Won't 
happen again :o(

Niki


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-18  7:15             ` Niki Kovacs
@ 2009-05-18 14:49               ` Michael Shigorin
  2009-05-19 11:11                 ` Niki Kovacs
    0 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Michael Shigorin @ 2009-05-18 14:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: community-en; +Cc: Andrey Cherepanov

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 09:15:47AM +0200, Niki Kovacs wrote:
> Oooops sorry. I saw the "pastebin" and "offlist" bit too late.
> Won't happen again :o(

No problem but you've probably got mailman messages regarding
"no pasaran" either. :)

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 09:14:55AM +0200, Niki Kovacs wrote:
> >Ouch.  If you're able to go to tty2/3 (shells there), copy
> >/tmp/*.log onto USB flash or whatever, check that these don't
> >contain your passwords (at this stage they definitely shouldn't)
> >and pastebin them or mail offlist to me, maybe we could find the
> >culprit in this particular case.
> Right, here goes. Hope you don't mind if I attach these.
> I did an attempt in "install safe mode".

Here it is, hidden in basesystem.log:

pkg[452]=samba-client-control-1.2-alt1
error: read failed: Input/output error (5)
pkg[453]=fillup-1.42-alt4

[...]

pkg[822]=kdebase-kcontrol-3.5.10-alt4.M41.1
error: read failed: Input/output error (5)
pkg[823]=xorg-dri-mach64-7.0.4-alt8.M41.3

Media read failures, hence either DVDRW disk is going to trash
or another DVDR should be used with this drive (or burn those
with some additional speed limit).

2 cas: would be nice to finally include some "media check"
in Desktop 5.0, seems like time.

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-18 14:49               ` Michael Shigorin
@ 2009-05-19 11:11                 ` Niki Kovacs
      1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Niki Kovacs @ 2009-05-19 11:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: shigorin, ALT Linux users (in English only)

Michael Shigorin a écrit :
> 
> Media read failures, hence either DVDRW disk is going to trash
> or another DVDR should be used with this drive (or burn those
> with some additional speed limit).

Well, I reburnt the CD just in case and double-checked ("Verify" in K3B 
exited with a solemn trumpet sound :oD). And yes, MD5SUM was also OK.

I gave the install another spin... and had the exact same errors.

What's curious: CentOS 5, Ubuntu 9.04 and Windows XP install just fine 
on the same machine, so there's no sign of a dying DVD reader either.

Which leaves me clueless.

Niki


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  @ 2009-05-19 17:00                     ` Michael Shigorin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Michael Shigorin @ 2009-05-19 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ALT Linux users (in English only)

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 03:31:28PM +0300, Alex Negulescu wrote:
> Try downloading the bootable image located at
> http://mirror.yandex.ru/altlinux/4.1/Desktop/4.1.1/iso/altlinux-4.1.1-desktop-i586-install-flash.img.gz
> ftp://ftp.altlinux.org/pub/distributions/ALTLinux/4.1/Desktop/4.1.1/iso/altlinux-4.1.1-desktop-i586-install-flash.img.gz
> "Burn" it to flash with: dd 
> if=altlinux-4.1.0-desktop-i586-install-flash.img of=/dev/sdX

gunzip first. :)


On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 01:11:37PM +0200, Niki Kovacs wrote:
> >Media read failures, hence either DVDRW disk is going to trash
> >or another DVDR should be used with this drive (or burn those
> >with some additional speed limit).
> Well, I reburnt the CD just in case and double-checked
> ("Verify" in K3B exited with a solemn trumpet sound :oD).
> And yes, MD5SUM was also OK.
> 
> I gave the install another spin... and had the exact same errors.

Ouch.  Could you also bother yourself with another attempt,
then doing dmesg > /tmp/dmesg and posting pastebin or mailing the
file offlist to me?  Hope it's not the problem with HDD but
stupid things come overlooked first...

> What's curious: CentOS 5, Ubuntu 9.04 and Windows XP install
> just fine on the same machine, so there's no sign of a dying
> DVD reader either.  Which leaves me clueless.

I'm glad for the system but so far have no explanations but
media readability for this exact kind of errors.  Would also try
to perform dd if=/dev/cdrom of=/dev/null bs=1M from any Linux
already installed, just to put DVD subsystem outside the problem
equation.

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  @ 2009-05-19 17:01                   ` Michael Shigorin
    2009-05-20  9:05                   ` Niki Kovacs
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Michael Shigorin @ 2009-05-19 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ALT Linux users (in English only)

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 09:32:30PM +0300, Alex Negulescu wrote:
> Glad Niki did find out what was the issue.

Heh.

> I think media check is not needed because the errors are
> "spitten" out on console. Besides, checking the md5 of files is
> made by a lot of us after downloading, so if the md5 is ok, the
> problem could be either from the media or from the hardware
> support :-)

"A lot of us" is a bit of exaggeration...
  
> Maybe it would be good to have (the check) but I would not like
> it to be a "default" button. The check should be done just on
> confirm not automatically or by a wrong entery key push.

Of course not by the default path (which is "boot from HDD").
  
> On the other hand I would like to know how could I install from
> usb disk multiple versions of ALT/any other linux.  Like have a
> boot menu (with grub) to install ALT Linux 5.0, 4.1, 4.0
> server, sisyphus, each with x86_64 options.  Do i have to
> rebuild the installer or is there a way to specify another
> directory for the rpms (specify as parameter, not when the
> installer asks it - i am now using this method, the installer

I guess you might like to discuss possibilities with 
Michael Kangin (mak@altlinux) who implemented the LiveFlash
in mkimage profile, and it *seems* to me that this path is
hardcoded in installer -- IIRC it wasn't moved to features:
http://git.altlinux.org/people/ldv/packages/?p=installer.git
http://git.altlinux.org/people/inger/packages/?p=installer.git

Another place that's concerned is alterator-pkg (optionals):
http://git.altlinux.org/people/ldv/packages/?p=alterator-pkg.git
http://git.altlinux.org/people/inger/packages/?p=alterator-pkg.git

I'd also probably have to introduce you to mkimage, and translate
at least the basic docs at http://www.altlinux.org/Mkimage and
http://www.altlinux.org/Mkimage/Desktop if you decide to join
the party ;-)

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  @ 2009-05-19 19:37                       ` Michael Shigorin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Michael Shigorin @ 2009-05-19 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ALT Linux users (in English only)

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 08:25:07PM +0300, Alex Negulescu wrote:
> No, I was saying about the automated media check I have seen at
> some distros (in the past) after clicking install.. a check
> that you can't bypass.

Ouch.  Bypassable by default is what I meant, but this kind
of treatment is not what I'd tolerate myself in ALT Linux.
That is, would patch out and make folks merge that fix. :)

> >I'd also probably have to introduce you to mkimage, and translate
> >at least the basic docs at http://www.altlinux.org/Mkimage and
> >http://www.altlinux.org/Mkimage/Desktop if you decide to join
> >the party ;-)
> I'll probably join the party soon.. I'm kind of starting
> learning russian because I have been planning some trips over
> there, to the mountains, so .. I am OK with the page in
> russian.

Ouch!  BTW I've liked hiking a lot when there was time for that,
feel free to contact offlist as well.

> I have read about mkimage, but didn't (for now) start building
> anything.  I'll probably build something soon, because I need
> some disc to do it all, with what I want, with my settings, for
> servers for example.

See also http://www.altlinux.org/Installer and
http://www.altlinux.org/Installer/beans

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
    2009-05-19 17:01                   ` Michael Shigorin
@ 2009-05-20  9:05                   ` Niki Kovacs
  2009-05-20 10:58                     ` Alex Negulescu
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Niki Kovacs @ 2009-05-20  9:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ALT Linux users (in English only)

Alex Negulescu a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> Glad Niki did find out what was the issue.

Well, that's not exactly true. I md5'ed the ISO, burnt it again and 
re-double-checked it... and got the exact same result.

Niki


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-20  9:05                   ` Niki Kovacs
@ 2009-05-20 10:58                     ` Alex Negulescu
  2009-05-20 16:18                       ` Michael Shigorin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Alex Negulescu @ 2009-05-20 10:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ALT Linux users (in English only)

Hello,

Maybe the issue is the optical unit. :( or the mode it is accessed. Did 
you try with nodma, or specify use dma instead of pio ?
Anyway, did you try the usb install method ?

Alex

Niki Kovacs wrote:
> Alex Negulescu a écrit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> Glad Niki did find out what was the issue.
>
> Well, that's not exactly true. I md5'ed the ISO, burnt it again and 
> re-double-checked it... and got the exact same result.
>
> Niki
> _______________________________________________
> community-en mailing list
> community-en@lists.altlinux.org
> https://lists.altlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/community-en




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

* Re: [Comm-en] Introduction
  2009-05-20 10:58                     ` Alex Negulescu
@ 2009-05-20 16:18                       ` Michael Shigorin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Michael Shigorin @ 2009-05-20 16:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ALT Linux users (in English only)

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 01:58:17PM +0300, Alex Negulescu wrote:
> Maybe the issue is the optical unit. :( or the mode it is
> accessed. Did you try with nodma, or specify use dma instead of
> pio ?

I think it would be pretty weird, never had to use those tricks
for the last 5+ years.

I'd still try to read the written media with dd(1) just in case.

-- 
 ---- WBR, Michael Shigorin <mike@altlinux.ru>
  ------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2009-05-20 16:18 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 16+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2009-05-17  9:04 [Comm-en] Introduction Niki Kovacs
2009-05-17  9:19 ` Michael Shigorin
2009-05-17  9:55   ` Niki Kovacs
2009-05-17 10:18     ` Michael Shigorin
2009-05-17 10:28       ` Michael Shigorin
2009-05-17 10:46         ` Niki Kovacs
2009-05-17 21:54           ` Michael Shigorin
2009-05-18  7:15             ` Niki Kovacs
2009-05-18 14:49               ` Michael Shigorin
2009-05-19 11:11                 ` Niki Kovacs
2009-05-19 17:00                     ` Michael Shigorin
2009-05-19 17:01                   ` Michael Shigorin
2009-05-19 19:37                       ` Michael Shigorin
2009-05-20  9:05                   ` Niki Kovacs
2009-05-20 10:58                     ` Alex Negulescu
2009-05-20 16:18                       ` Michael Shigorin

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